A Catholic reply to Protestant “[mis]- Understandings” Part 2 by patrick j miron

Protestant Theology & Catholic Doctrines

Exposed to cover & discover the “Naked Truth“... Catholic responses to the Booklet: “Answers to my Catholic Friends” by Thomas F. Heinze   Part 2

A Catholic reply to Protestant “[mis]- Understandings” Part 2

“Do the Bread and Wine Become Christ Body and Blood”?


Canons on the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist 


Canon 1
: If anyone denies that in the sacrament of the most Holy Eucharist are contained truly, really and substantially the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ,^[42] but says that He is in it only as in a sign, or figure or force, let him be anathema. 
Canon 11
: If anyone says that faith alone is a sufficient preparation for receiving the sacrament of the most Holy Eucharist,^[52] let him be anathema.





Because i patrick j miron can safely assume that Mr. Heinze does not accept this( roman)  Catholic teaching, rather than detail the specifics in detail;




 I will instead simply supply his arguments against and denying the reality of Christ Real Presence and then respond to each of them.

Which only affirms my own opinion that God Himself has a role in these  well-intended Protestant positions which , nevertheless,

 reflect  serious-errant misunderstandings of Catholic Doctrines and Dogma, along with an in ability to separate “church-practices,” which can change, from doctrine and dogma which cannot be changed.

Patrick j miron's opinion #128

 God Himself limits their ability to understand the bible by imposing upon them the plague of Ignorance.  

This will be proven and become very evident as we proceed though the booklet Thomas authored, and  which, God willing, we shall prove and provide biblical evidence of that explains and supports the Catholic Positions.

I  (patrick j miron)have for sometime now  been Blessed by God, and able to recognize God’s hand in the lack of RIGHT understanding of what the bible really says as a rather common Protestant trait.

 In fact; it seems to be one thing many of the denominations have in common. This ought not be a surprise to any of us who are “bible-savvy,”  as clear warning is given by God through the bible itself., in a variety of ways.

Allow me to please set a platform for this part of the discussion. I do not exaggerate one iota when I claim

that this topic, while wrongly understood, is nevertheless a well thought out and formulated thesis. It is draconian in nature because it attempts to place a STAKE  into the very heart, body, mind and soul of the entirety of our Catholic beliefs. If one is unable to defend this issue,  of Christ “Real Presence, one is unable to defend Catholism in total. They win; we lose! …WHY?


 BUT is proves clearly and without discussion that it is based ONLY on only human logic. No credit is given to Jesus as  a all- Good-God; able to do ANY GOOD THING.
I’m finding it beneficial to keep reminding myself that Thomas too, like us is a Baptized Christian. A Brother in Christ, and that this is not a direct assault on us personally. It is evident the he loves, and in his own way is serving God.

It is also evident that my understanding of God limiting Protestant understanding is too correct.

While the arguments are well thought out, and a bit different than the normal Protestant explanation; based on John 6: selected verses; 35-69,  there clearly is lacking the depth of understanding of God’s very Nature and the precise reason for human existence and how they necessarily relate as expressed within the Bible itself. God’s basis for imposing such a penalty is::

Matt. 25: 27-29 …“So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has the ten talents. … For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away”All those who are “given more “ [Baptized], will be held to a far more critical evaluation by God., as the Holy Spirit is AVAILABLE to them for guidance.

POINT #4. It is necessary to point out that denial of this Truth on which the entirety of Christianity rest, is factually a “Denial of God Himself.” The One unforgivable sin. [Luke 12:10] The reality of Christ Real presence can ONLY be grasped, and accepted through the red-tinted glasses of God’s Love for His created Humanity. Nothing Good is impossible for God. Manna, [signifying bread] ,the quail, [signifying meat-flesh], water [signifying life]. from the Rock and the First Miracle in Cana; transforming one substance [water] into another substance [wine]; ALL point to the “Real Presence” and God’s ability to do it.











I AM Catholic, by Pat Miron

Mark.12: 24 “Jesus said to them, "Is not this why you are wrong, that you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God?”

POINT #1. The Body of evidence that supports WHY and HOW we Catholics have and continue to Hold this DIVINE-Truth is solidly biblically grounded, solidly Theologically grounded, and can be proven to have been correctly understood, lived and practiced from the time of Christ death to the present times, and beyond. That friends is some TWO-THOUSAND YEARS!

Point # 10 Paul 1 Cor.11: 23-29

For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread.  And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you:this do for the commemoration of me. In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.  For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall show the death of the Lord, until he come.  

POINT # 11 Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.But let a man prove himself: [to be worthy of the privilege]  and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. For he that eats and drinks unworthily, eats and drinks judgment to himself”

It is an impossibility that Paul could have uttered these words of Grave Spiritual warning, IF he were NOT knowingly speaking of the Transubstantiation of ordinary bread and wine into the very Real, now Glorified Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. One is not “condemned for consuming ONLY ordinary bread and wine!”

 Patrick j miron commentary on the Apostle paul .. on the invented term of transubstatiation,

this is called in the bible commentary business-- of "reading into scripture" what  is not really there-- similar to inching ears seeking an interpreteration of one's desire.

there much more on this interpretation -by actual bible scholars 

But patrick j miron is correct-  One is not “condemned for consuming ONLY ordinary bread and wine!”

Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.

POINT #17 Not one time in the entire Bible or in Tradition did or has God EVER permitted belief in # 1. More than one God [Triune] # 2. More than the ONLY Set of Faith-beliefs that He Himself Taught # 3. Or has God protected more than His Chosen People; now the Catholic Church. ALWAYS Only One Church[Jn.14:16-17; Jn.17: 15-19, And Jn.20:19-22]

Because the Bible is a Catholic Book and was completely written by the End of the First Century; the ONLY “church” in existence in the Entire world is today’s Roman catholic Church. Thus every biblical reference to a “church” or “churches” applies specifically and exclusively to today’s RCC.

John Chapter Six “The Bread of Life Discourse”

[35] Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst. … This Is God; “All-knowing,” All-Wise” and  All-Perfect who is unable to lie of mislead anyone, which would be a Denial of God’s Divinity,  speaking in the First-Person as Our God, to His NEW “chosen-people.”

[36] But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. …

Being God and able to read minds and hearts: Jesus is completely aware of who it is that will DENY Him., and on what basis they choose to do so, but makes no changes to what he is proclaiming as Our God, who came to both Redeem and to Save us…. [40] For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

This is spoken precisely to inform those present that EVEN if they have doubts that He is the Messiah; this is the Devine Will of Almighty God the Father

[41] The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven." [42] They said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, `I have come down from heaven'?" …[READ MARK 6:1-6 FOR THE SAME POSITION] And HERE we see where Thomas inherits his secular-humanistic-human logic ALONE thinking from. Here then are the ground’s for their unbelief and actual Denial of God. SECUALR-Humanistic Logic ONLY is applied without Faith, even without Hope or Love, that, admitted or not, stems from a Denial that Jesus Is god; and is capable of accomplishing “any good thing.”

[44] ; “and I will raise him up at the last day. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him” ….  This of course is a precise reference to Heb. 3:12, quoted earlier.

[60] Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?"

And choose to leave Christ; to Deny God. …Is what God has imposed upon Protestant lack of understanding sufficient to meet the crime. NO! Even now Christ demonstrates his Love for them, and His desire to also be in a personal relationship with them. One OUGHT NOT ASSUME that because they think that they are in a personal relationship with Christ; that it is reciprocal. Maybe it is; maybe it is not?

[63] It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. This is the verse most often quoted by Protestants as the definitive evidence that Christ [having here denied “the flesh” HAS TO BE SPEAKING SYMBOLICALLY” … Immediately we see God’s imposed lack of understanding taking effect. What Christ is trying to teach here; is that their [the defectors], understanding is partially correct. That His HUMAN BODY, the body and voice speaking to them is of NO Spiritual EFFECT and No Spiritual benefit.. WHAT they fail to understand, lacking Faith, Hope, and Love, is that Jesus KNOWING that he is but hours away from His Passion and death, and KNOWING full well that He will rise again is speaking of His SOON to be, Glorified Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity [Matt. 28:20], When Jesus promised to remain with us until the end of time. And NO, He does not spell it our; YET without doing so ALL those who actually DO possess Faith, Hope and Love; get and GOT the correct message. And they has been warned, even if they choose to not comprehend the message.

67] Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also wish to go away?" [68] Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; [69] and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God."

This final TEST, this last chance, proves beyond any “logical” doubts that Jesus Did MEAD EXACTLY what he said. When many denied and abandoned Him; He did NOT call them back, did NOT change His message, did NOT offer further clarification. What Christ DID do, and DID accomplish in so doing is turn to Peter and the Apostles and ask: Do YOU BELIEVE ME? Or Do you too wish to DENY Me? [69] and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God." … And that dear friends is the ONLY response God will accept; because it ALONE is the singular truth. AMEN! Christ HAS Spoken!

[1] This miracle termed “transubstantiation” is not evident

I’m sorry; but I though miracles were mysteries? Not to make light of you’re point. But being “Under Grace” rather than just “the Law” [Rom. 6:14], permits God to expand along with our Understanding, what it is we are to understand through Faith. Heb.11: 1-3 “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.  For by it the men of old received divine approval. By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear.” It is after All the very teaching of Jesus Christ Himself”

[2] It is based on a Tradition that entered the church around 300 AD

This is blindly WRONG information. We have given evidence in the Bible, by the Early Fathers and from the Catholic Catechism [ provable in Secular History ], that this teaching was known, accepted and practiced if not immediately after Christ Death, then surely shortly after His Resurrection. It is BASED ONCHRIST PERSONAL TEACHING AND THE TESTIMONY OF GOD AND FIVE OTHER NEW TESTAMENT AUTHORS, NOT TRADITION; ALTHOUGH IT QUICKLY BECAME A KEY PART OF OUT TRADITION.

[3] It did not become a “dogma” until 1215 AD

FROM THE CATHOLIC Encyclopedia

“The persuasion of the Church from Apostolic times about the objective reality of these words of Christ is clear from many documents.”

By the 16th century, some Reformers (excluding Luther) also taught that Christ's presence in the Eucharist was only figurative or metaphorical. Since there were other opinions being taught as truth (figurative presence and metaphorical presence) a teaching authority had to be appealed to discern error from the truth. The way of the Church was to follow the model of Acts 15.

The Council of Trent (1545 - 1563) defined the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and the Eucharist as both the continuing sacrifice of Christ and a real sacrament. The institution of the Eucharist as sacrament was contained in the words "Do this in remembrance of me."

The date of declared “Dogma” is significant ONLY in that it raises this believe that has always been held as true, believed, understood and practiced, to a position of indisputable truth. This was made necessary by the Protestant revolution, begun by Martin Luther which soon spread to other “I Know more or I know better” than God and the Catholic Church. Despite regional attacks throughout history , none had ever been serious enough, wide spread enough to require such an action, which has always been held as infallible truth, because God said so.

[4] It was around 1226 that catholics begin to bow down before the bread

Actually is on or far more like, much before 1171.

To clarify our Teaching as catholics. We UNDERSTAND that the Eucharist is From God [the Father], Of God  [Jesus the Son], and caused By God [The Holy Spirit] using His priest. It is a series of miracles that ONLY humanity can benefit from as God is already Perfect.

[7] Because Christ was standing up in front of his disciples it is clear that in holding up the bread and wine and pronouncing the words that “this is My Body; this is My Blood” were intended to be understood [only] symbolically.

No, not at all. Christ made clear just what he did mean; it was understood by the Apostles, and it was put into practice as Jesus commanded after He died. Do not hold god to “time” which is a necessity of humanity; not of God for whom everything is in the “present.”

[8] There can be no doubt of this because he calls “it bread three times”, which he certainly would NOT have done if it really was not ONLY BREAD, but literally his body. {every time you eat this bread” … 1^st. Cor. 11:26-28} “For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. [PAUL’S Admonition] Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.” … A bit of “slight of hand” is attempted here. Only the first use is from the mouth of Jesus [who clearly] is implying that it is NOW His Body and no-longer just bread… which also is the rebuke Paul gives to those who are not giving IT proper respect and worship!

[9] he MUST have been speaking symbolically either when he was speaking of the bread or when speaking of his body

And this friends is the thinking of secular-humanistic logic; void of Faith, Hope, love and TRUTH.

[10] the question is NOT “should we interpret the passage literally… BUT which part are we to interpret literally and which part symbolically?” DITTO above comments

[11] the only other choice is that it changed from bread to his body then back to bread again

Same lack of understanding repeated here

Same lack of understanding repeated here

[12] we find a similar remark in Mark 14:25 “Truly, I say to you, I shall not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God."

This takes place in a Passover meal, and Jesus here refers to the third Traditional cut of wine.

[13] Did he NOT MEAN that it is through him, we can enter into heaven, rather than his body which had been changed into blood.”

Actually it is NOT ONLY “through Him” IT IS Through Him, and With Him and In Him” which exactly why Jesus does it. Because Salvation IS through Jesus; the Eucharist is the GREATEST AID God can provide [conditionally] to lead us to all that is necessary to merit salvation.

[14] Even MORE important at the moment the miracle should occur; nothing happenings

Thomas here’s the deal I’ll make you: YOU show me “grace” and then I’ll show you Jesus REALLY in the Eucharist [actually I intend to do this anyway].

[15] By way of comparison Christ changed water into wine  and it became WINE! [Jn.28: 8-10]…Funny you should mention that. This miracle is different from every other Jesus reported miracle in that ALL of the others had a “Spiritual element”, a spiritual benefit. So what and where are the “spiritual element; the spiritual benefit here?” … To Be continued at the Last Supper!

Thomas I don’t want to make light of your point. Every other miracle had physical evidence, and you’re asking why not here? And the Answer is that it is at the Last Supper: REALLY CHRIST, thee miracle of miracles because it is not only done by God; IT IS GOD!

[16] now let us not loose sight of the true purpose of the “communion service”. Christ never ONCE told the disciples to offer up his body again; He told the TWICE to do this “in memory of me.”

Excuse me Brother Thomas;. “Communion service???” NOT !!!!!! “ Mass” YES! With theTransubstaniatiated; REAL Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity: the COMPLETE JESUS CHRIST.

Pat 

The THIRD issue raised is “Can the sacrifice of Christ be Renewed”?

Thomas say’s “NO!”

And this agrees with what we Catholics Actually believe. Christ Sacrifice in the Most holy Eucharist is One and the SAME-IDENTIAL one that claimed Christ Life. We understand that Jesus can ONLY die once in His human nature; thus the Sacrifice is “RE-PRESENTED”; PRESENTED AGAIN AND AGAIN WHICH TOO IS A MIRACLE FROM GOD.