Monday, July 30, 2012

PASTOR DESTROYS, SAINT Thérèse of Lisieux IDOL"vs" patrick j miron praying thru an idol

find a crying statue and pray thru it

Michael Coren: Why Catholics Are Right

Theological Debate with a Roman Catholic Monsignor #1: Anything Goes Faith?

DOES ROMAN CATHOLICISM PREACH A DIFFERENT GOSPEL? DEBATE #1: LARRY WESSE...

debater with patrick j miron

Alamo - Control Madness with Patrick j miron -- religious training and demenstration

yes ever sense Patrick j miron figured out the unity of the scriptures he has been teaching others in the application and demonstration of the Supremely of the Catholic church and being led by the Catholic church. this on only church Jesus started - making Peter the 1st Boss and manager of the business.

and all the other Church's really don't have the ability to understand the scriptures-- that he only gave to the Catholic church ..

Ha ha --

Family Guy - When You Poop In Your Dreams, You Poop For Real! the roman catholic church

remember that it was the
roman catholic church that started "everything" and made the bible--

so how come everyone dosen't believe only the roman catholic church can interpret-ate it right

Is the Catholic Church really the Whore of Babylon?

The whore of Babylon

Mystery Babylon the Great - Who is She?

The Delusional Beliefs of Patrick j Miron---(if you can't dazzle them with brillance then bury them in Bull-shit)

A Patrick J miron Catholic reply to Protestant “[mis]- Understandings” Part 1 “I Am Catholic” by Patrick J Miron

Protestant Theology & Catholic Doctrines

Exposed to cover & discover the “Naked Truth“... Catholic responses to the Booklet: “Answers to my Catholic Friends” by Thomas F. Heinze

A Catholic reply to Protestant “[mis]- Understandings” Part 1

“I Am Catholic” by Pat Miron

A message to our non-Catholic Friends

Psalm 95:8 “If today You Hear His Voice; Harden Not Your Hearts”

Patrick J miron does not take his own Advice

The Delusional Beliefs of Patrick j Miron

(if you can't dazzle them with brillance then bury them in Bull-shit)

Deuteronomy 18: 15 - 20

"The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren -- him you shall heed -- just as you desired of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly, when you said, `Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, or see this great fire any more, lest I die.' And the LORD said to me, `They have rightly said all that they have spoken. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brethren; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And whoever will not give heed to my words which he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him. But the prophet [person] who presumes to speak a word in my name which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die… Yahweh; the God of the OT is the same God as Jesus in the NT. What was good for souls then is even more important in the Secular; Devil driven times of today. Jesus promised NOT to abandon us; [John 14:19] and kept His Word by Appointing Peter and the Catholic Church, which He personally continues to guide, guard, protect and lead. [John17:15-19]

From the beginning of recorded history God has consistently chosen mortal men to lead “his Chosen people.” Even if [and when] they sinned; God was with them. They were commanded by God to speak on His behalf, guided and inspired by God, and to be heard as “God Himself is to be heard. …Noah, Abraham, Isaac, David, Solomon, the Prophets, John the Baptist; then Jesus Christ Himself; God Incarnate, who following His Own Tradition personally choose Peter to complete the New Covenant, and entrusted to Peter His own one-set of Faith beliefs, and the Only Church ever founded directly by God Himself. So the ONE question each man, women and child of age must ask themselves is: Do I listen and Obey God or someone else?

Matt. 16; 18:19 ..”And I [JESUS] tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it

. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Psalms 127:1 "Unless the Lord builds the house, those who build it labor in vain. Unless the Lord watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain."

Isaiah 55:8 -9 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the LORD. As high as the heavens are above the earth, so high are my ways above your ways and my thoughts above your thoughts.”

Here we are in the middle of January, 2012, and I’m just now opening one of my Christmas presents. This from our daughter, who no doubt saw the word “catholic” and exclaimed: “Oh! Dad would like this”

Although it is written by a Protestant Theologian, I must confess that I am delighted to be able to report that the booklet is well thought out and presented with true Christian charity.

Thomas makes his case plain, and to the unknowing, or unsuspecting; convincingly .

Mr. Heinze has a Masters Degree in Theology from the DALLAS THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY.

What became immediately apparent is the sincerity of the positions held by Mr. Heinze., and his evident desire to be factual and true. Which only affirms my own opinion that God Himself has a role in these well-intended Protestant positions which , nevertheless, reflect serious-errant misunderstandings of Catholic

Doctrines and Dogma, along with an in ability to separate “church-practices,” which can change, from doctrine and dogma which cannot be changed.

Patrick j miron's opinion is

God Himself limits their ability to understand the bible by imposing upon them the plague of Ignorance.

This will be proven and become very evident as we proceed though the booklet Thomas authored, and which, God willing, we shall prove and provide biblical evidence of that explains and supports the Catholic Positions.

I have for sometime now been Blessed by God, and able to recognize God’s hand in the lack of RIGHT understanding of what the bible really says as a rather common Protestant trait.

In fact; it seems to be one thing many of the denominations have in common.

This ought not be a surprise to any of us who are “bible-savvy,” as clear warning is given by God through the bible itself., in a variety of ways.

Let’s begin with an understanding that the Bibles is a Catholic Book, in a very specific and precise manner. [This too is often debated as if there were actually grounds to despite it].

It is the Catholic Church that “birthed the Bible.”

ED- note

this is an amazing ly deceptive understanding of scripture --assembly, comprehension- education- and training--

the basic Jewish people who kept the OLD testement -- writings -- did not always understand the application and meaning of the scripture--

which is an inherent demonstrated aspect of the Roman Catholic understanding of the assembled scripture

DELusional belief of Patrick j Miron #8943

ED- note

2 Chronicles 34

The Book of the Law Found

¹⁴While they were bringing out the money that had been taken into the temple of the Lord, Hilkiah the priest found the Book of the Law of the Lord that had been given through Moses. ¹⁵Hilkiah said to Shaphan the secretary, “I have found the Book of the Law in the temple of the Lord.” He gave it to Shaphan.
¹⁶Then Shaphan took the book to the king and reported to him: “Your officials are doing everything that has been committed to them. ¹⁷They have paid out the money that was in the temple of the Lord and have entrusted it to the supervisors and workers.” ¹⁸Then Shaphan the secretary informed the king, “Hilkiah the priest has given me a book.” And Shaphan read from it in the presence of the king.
¹⁹When the king heard the words of the Law, he tore his robes. ²⁰He gave these orders to Hilkiah, Ahikam son of Shaphan , Abdon son of Micah,^[a] Shaphan the secretary and Asaiah the king’s attendant: ²¹“Go and inquire of the Lord for me and for the remnant in Israel and Judah about what is written in this book that has been found. Great is the Lord’s anger that is poured out on us because those who have gone before us have not kept the word of the Lord; they have not acted in accordance with all that is written in this book.”

=======================

yes indeed

It is historically provable that it was the Catholic Church that selected and collected the Old Testament books to be included as part of the bible; and the entire New Testament is authored by men known today, to have been early Fathers of today’s Catholic Church.

It was the Catholic Church that Codified and selected officially all of the books to be included in the bible..

Further as the bible was completely written by the end of the First Century; the only “church” that existed anywhere in the known world, is historically proven to be, today’s Catholic Church.

Is the Catholic Church really the Whore of Babylon?

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DeLusion # 6745

Thus, all references in the bible to “church” or “churches” are a direct reference to today’s Catholic Church.

And the final point, is that it is Jesus Himself who first introduced the term “church” in Matthew 16:15-19,

when

He appointed Peter as the first leader of this one- church.

Delusion # 7865

A position, known today as the papacy.

-(if you can't dazzle them with brillance then bury them in scripture Bull-)

Jer.3: 15 "`And I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding”

2^nd. Peter 1: 16-21 “You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”

Acts.20: 28 “Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God [SINGULAR] which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.”

John 10: 1-3 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door [I Christ choose] but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber but he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the gatekeeper opens; the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.

1Tim. 3: 15 “if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the [SINGULAR] household of God, which is the church [SINGULAR] of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth [SINGULAR]”

Luke 10:16 "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

1 John 4: Little children, you are of God, and have overcome them; for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. They are of the world, therefore what they say is of the world, and the world listens to them. We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.”

John 17:18-24 "As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.
And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth. "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.”

1 John 4: 4-9 “Little children, you are of God, and have overcome them; for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. They are of the world, therefore what they say is of the world, and the world listens to them. We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.”

2 Tim. 4: 1-4 ”I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths.”

Eph.3: 9 to 12 “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [SINGULAR: meaning THE CATHOLIC Church] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confidence of access through our faith in him”

Matt.13:9-12 “He who has ears, let him hear." Then the disciples came and said to him, "Why do you speak to them in parables?" And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.” For to him who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. “

2^nd. Peter 3: 14-17 “Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability”

Even all of this is not the complete set of warnings presented in the Bible; but these ought to verify my position, that it is nearly impossible for anyone not to be warned about the high probability of incorrect understanding of what God really taught and what he means and commands, without the chosen-guides that he himself has commanded. Those guides being exclusively of the Catholic Church.

John 15:16 “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.” …Matt. 16: 18-19 “And I [JESUS] tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt. 28:16-20 “Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted. [THOMAS] And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

(if you can't dazzle them with brillance then bury them in scripture Bull-)

Having identified the underlying cause of the problem as an apparent inability to consistently understand correctly and fully, the Written Words of God,

I Patrick j miron; now obligated to explain just why it happens.

The underlying cause is a God imposed penalty for NOT doing what He say’s and NOT fully following ALL of His teachings, as will be clearly demonstrated. Exactly how God accomplishes this remains a mystery.

The fact that He is behind it, is not.

I suspect it is accomplished by withholding Devine guidance, as is His Right.

There is evidence of an unintentional selective application of passages elected and chosen to solidify the positions expressed by Brother Heinze, that I have seen quite often by his contemporaries.

At first I thought it might be intentional; but have come to understand that it is God who limits their understanding;

making it still possible, but far more difficult for them to uncover and discover God’s Fullness of Truth.

It’s a battle between Pride and Humility; Good and Evil; Partial truths and the Fullness of Gods Own Truth.

Thursday, July 26, 2012

EARLY CHRISTIAN CHURCH HISTORY #17: EVANGELISM METHODS - APOLOGETICS, PO..."Vs patrick j miron

get your studies with patrick j miron, or with some one who really knows how to understand the scriptures

What are the "keys of the kingdom" referred to in Matthew 16:19?

What authority did Jesus Christ give to Peter and the New Testament Church of God?

Answer:

The Bible uses a key as a symbol of authority. In Isaiah 22:22, we see Eliakim the priest receiving "the key of the house of David…on his shoulder." Revelation 3:7 uses similar symbolism. A trusted servant to the king wore the key to the king's house on a hook on his shoulder. Therefore, he had the authority to open or close the king's house.

Assuming Jesus was addressing Peter in Matthew 16:19, some interpret this to mean that Peter had the authority to allow or disallow access to the Kingdom of God. This explanation has two inherent errors. First, although Jesus said something specifically to Peter in verse 18, He included all the disciples in His comments in verse 19.

This is reflected in related verses where the Greek for the pronoun "you" is plural ("ye" in the King James Version). Matthew 18:18 says, "Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (emphasis added throughout). John 20:23 says: "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."

The "rock" of Matthew 16:18 is Jesus, not Peter. Peter was a leading apostle of the early New Testament Church of God for many years, but not its chief cornerstone—that was and is Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:20).

Second, it's erroneous to think any man could allow someone into the Kingdom of God whom God would not allow into it. Similarly, no man could disallow someone access to the Kingdom whom God would invite into it.

The Greek in Matthew 16:19 (as well as Matthew 18:18 and John 20:23) is not always clearly translated. These actions are called "future perfect passives" and can be rendered, "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven" (New American Standard Bible, Updated Edition). God is not obligated to bind an ungodly decision. In other words, Christ would lead the Church leadership to decisions that He had already bound in heaven, not vice versa.

Anciently, when one came to seek the king's help or counsel, the servant's job was to open the door to the king's house and assist him in reaching the king. Christ's servants, the ministry, have a similar responsibility to assist those God is calling in coming to their King, Jesus Christ.

Christ showed that the religious teachers of His day, who had access to the knowledge of God's ways, had failed in this duty. "Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered" (Luke 11:52). Occasionally, the ministry has the sad duty to inform some that because of their choices and actions, the doors to the kingdom are being closed to them unless they repent. See 1 Corinthians 5 or 2 Thessalonians 3:14.

Revelation 3:7 speaks plainly of Jesus having the key. In ancient Israel, the human king was in fact the steward of God, the true King of the land. Similarly, the divine Christ will be the steward of His Father's Kingdom. With that authority, Jesus could allow or disallow someone entrance into the Kingdom—but no man had or has that authority. Christ's statement in Matthew 16:19 meant that His apostles had authority to represent Him, to teach as He taught them and to be instruments in helping people live the way the Kingdom of God. Christ still lends His authority to His true ministers today to do the same work. Sadly, many falsely claim this authority and misuse it.

A Catholic reply to Protestant “[mis]- Understandings” Part 2 by patrick j miron

Protestant Theology & Catholic Doctrines

Exposed to cover & discover the “Naked Truth“... Catholic responses to the Booklet: “Answers to my Catholic Friends” by Thomas F. Heinze Part 2

A Catholic reply to Protestant “[mis]- Understandings” Part 2

“Do the Bread and Wine Become Christ Body and Blood”?

Canons on the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist

Canon 1
: If anyone denies that in the sacrament of the most Holy Eucharist are contained truly, really and substantially the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ,^[42] but says that He is in it only as in a sign, or figure or force, let him be anathema.
Canon 11
: If anyone says that faith alone is a sufficient preparation for receiving the sacrament of the most Holy Eucharist,^[52] let him be anathema.

Because i patrick j miron can safely assume that Mr. Heinze does not accept this( roman) Catholic teaching, rather than detail the specifics in detail;

I will instead simply supply his arguments against and denying the reality of Christ Real Presence and then respond to each of them.

Which only affirms my own opinion that God Himself has a role in these well-intended Protestant positions which , nevertheless,

reflect serious-errant misunderstandings of Catholic Doctrines and Dogma, along with an in ability to separate “church-practices,” which can change, from doctrine and dogma which cannot be changed.

Patrick j miron's opinion #128

God Himself limits their ability to understand the bible by imposing upon them the plague of Ignorance.

I (patrick j miron)have for sometime now been Blessed by God, and able to recognize God’s hand in the lack of RIGHT understanding of what the bible really says as a rather common Protestant trait.

In fact; it seems to be one thing many of the denominations have in common. This ought not be a surprise to any of us who are “bible-savvy,” as clear warning is given by God through the bible itself., in a variety of ways.

Allow me to please set a platform for this part of the discussion. I do not exaggerate one iota when I claim

that this topic, while wrongly understood, is nevertheless a well thought out and formulated thesis. It is draconian in nature because it attempts to place a STAKE into the very heart, body, mind and soul of the entirety of our Catholic beliefs. If one is unable to defend this issue, of Christ “Real Presence, one is unable to defend Catholism in total. They win; we lose! …WHY?

BUT is proves clearly and without discussion that it is based ONLY on only human logic. No credit is given to Jesus as a all- Good-God; able to do ANY GOOD THING.
I’m finding it beneficial to keep reminding myself that Thomas too, like us is a Baptized Christian. A Brother in Christ, and that this is not a direct assault on us personally. It is evident the he loves, and in his own way is serving God.

It is also evident that my understanding of God limiting Protestant understanding is too correct.

While the arguments are well thought out, and a bit different than the normal Protestant explanation; based on John 6: selected verses; 35-69, there clearly is lacking the depth of understanding of God’s very Nature and the precise reason for human existence and how they necessarily relate as expressed within the Bible itself. God’s basis for imposing such a penalty is::

Matt. 25: 27-29 …“So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has the ten talents. … For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away”All those who are “given more “ [Baptized], will be held to a far more critical evaluation by God., as the Holy Spirit is AVAILABLE to them for guidance.

POINT #4. It is necessary to point out that denial of this Truth on which the entirety of Christianity rest, is factually a “Denial of God Himself.” The One unforgivable sin. [Luke 12:10] The reality of Christ Real presence can ONLY be grasped, and accepted through the red-tinted glasses of God’s Love for His created Humanity. Nothing Good is impossible for God. Manna, [signifying bread] ,the quail, [signifying meat-flesh], water [signifying life]. from the Rock and the First Miracle in Cana; transforming one substance [water] into another substance [wine]; ALL point to the “Real Presence” and God’s ability to do it.

I AM Catholic, by Pat Miron

Mark.12: 24 “Jesus said to them, "Is not this why you are wrong, that you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God?”

POINT #1. The Body of evidence that supports WHY and HOW we Catholics have and continue to Hold this DIVINE-Truth is solidly biblically grounded, solidly Theologically grounded, and can be proven to have been correctly understood, lived and practiced from the time of Christ death to the present times, and beyond. That friends is some TWO-THOUSAND YEARS!

Point # 10 Paul 1 Cor.11: 23-29

For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you:this do for the commemoration of me. In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me. For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall show the death of the Lord, until he come.

POINT # 11 Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.But let a man prove himself: [to be worthy of the privilege] and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. For he that eats and drinks unworthily, eats and drinks judgment to himself”

It is an impossibility that Paul could have uttered these words of Grave Spiritual warning, IF he were NOT knowingly speaking of the Transubstantiation of ordinary bread and wine into the very Real, now Glorified Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. One is not “condemned for consuming ONLY ordinary bread and wine!”

Patrick j miron commentary on the Apostle paul .. on the invented term of transubstatiation,

this is called in the bible commentary business-- of "reading into scripture" what is not really there-- similar to inching ears seeking an interpreteration of one's desire.

there much more on this interpretation -by actual bible scholars

But patrick j miron is correct- One is not “condemned for consuming ONLY ordinary bread and wine!”

Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.

POINT #17 Not one time in the entire Bible or in Tradition did or has God EVER permitted belief in # 1. More than one God [Triune] # 2. More than the ONLY Set of Faith-beliefs that He Himself Taught # 3. Or has God protected more than His Chosen People; now the Catholic Church. ALWAYS Only One Church[Jn.14:16-17; Jn.17: 15-19, And Jn.20:19-22]

Because the Bible is a Catholic Book and was completely written by the End of the First Century; the ONLY “church” in existence in the Entire world is today’s Roman catholic Church. Thus every biblical reference to a “church” or “churches” applies specifically and exclusively to today’s RCC.

John Chapter Six “The Bread of Life Discourse”

[35] Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst. … This Is God; “All-knowing,” All-Wise” and All-Perfect who is unable to lie of mislead anyone, which would be a Denial of God’s Divinity, speaking in the First-Person as Our God, to His NEW “chosen-people.”

[36] But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. …

Being God and able to read minds and hearts: Jesus is completely aware of who it is that will DENY Him., and on what basis they choose to do so, but makes no changes to what he is proclaiming as Our God, who came to both Redeem and to Save us…. [40] For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

This is spoken precisely to inform those present that EVEN if they have doubts that He is the Messiah; this is the Devine Will of Almighty God the Father

[41] The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven." [42] They said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, `I have come down from heaven'?" …[READ MARK 6:1-6 FOR THE SAME POSITION] And HERE we see where Thomas inherits his secular-humanistic-human logic ALONE thinking from. Here then are the ground’s for their unbelief and actual Denial of God. SECUALR-Humanistic Logic ONLY is applied without Faith, even without Hope or Love, that, admitted or not, stems from a Denial that Jesus Is god; and is capable of accomplishing “any good thing.”

[44] ; “and I will raise him up at the last day. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him” …. This of course is a precise reference to Heb. 3:12, quoted earlier.

[60] Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?"

And choose to leave Christ; to Deny God. …Is what God has imposed upon Protestant lack of understanding sufficient to meet the crime. NO! Even now Christ demonstrates his Love for them, and His desire to also be in a personal relationship with them. One OUGHT NOT ASSUME that because they think that they are in a personal relationship with Christ; that it is reciprocal. Maybe it is; maybe it is not?

[63] It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. This is the verse most often quoted by Protestants as the definitive evidence that Christ [having here denied “the flesh” HAS TO BE SPEAKING SYMBOLICALLY” … Immediately we see God’s imposed lack of understanding taking effect. What Christ is trying to teach here; is that their [the defectors], understanding is partially correct. That His HUMAN BODY, the body and voice speaking to them is of NO Spiritual EFFECT and No Spiritual benefit.. WHAT they fail to understand, lacking Faith, Hope, and Love, is that Jesus KNOWING that he is but hours away from His Passion and death, and KNOWING full well that He will rise again is speaking of His SOON to be, Glorified Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity [Matt. 28:20], When Jesus promised to remain with us until the end of time. And NO, He does not spell it our; YET without doing so ALL those who actually DO possess Faith, Hope and Love; get and GOT the correct message. And they has been warned, even if they choose to not comprehend the message.

67] Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also wish to go away?" [68] Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; [69] and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God."

This final TEST, this last chance, proves beyond any “logical” doubts that Jesus Did MEAD EXACTLY what he said. When many denied and abandoned Him; He did NOT call them back, did NOT change His message, did NOT offer further clarification. What Christ DID do, and DID accomplish in so doing is turn to Peter and the Apostles and ask: Do YOU BELIEVE ME? Or Do you too wish to DENY Me? [69] and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God." … And that dear friends is the ONLY response God will accept; because it ALONE is the singular truth. AMEN! Christ HAS Spoken!

[1] This miracle termed “transubstantiation” is not evident

I’m sorry; but I though miracles were mysteries? Not to make light of you’re point. But being “Under Grace” rather than just “the Law” [Rom. 6:14], permits God to expand along with our Understanding, what it is we are to understand through Faith. Heb.11: 1-3 “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old received divine approval. By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear.” It is after All the very teaching of Jesus Christ Himself”

[2] It is based on a Tradition that entered the church around 300 AD

This is blindly WRONG information. We have given evidence in the Bible, by the Early Fathers and from the Catholic Catechism [ provable in Secular History ], that this teaching was known, accepted and practiced if not immediately after Christ Death, then surely shortly after His Resurrection. It is BASED ONCHRIST PERSONAL TEACHING AND THE TESTIMONY OF GOD AND FIVE OTHER NEW TESTAMENT AUTHORS, NOT TRADITION; ALTHOUGH IT QUICKLY BECAME A KEY PART OF OUT TRADITION.

[3] It did not become a “dogma” until 1215 AD

FROM THE CATHOLIC Encyclopedia

“The persuasion of the Church from Apostolic times about the objective reality of these words of Christ is clear from many documents.”

By the 16th century, some Reformers (excluding Luther) also taught that Christ's presence in the Eucharist was only figurative or metaphorical. Since there were other opinions being taught as truth (figurative presence and metaphorical presence) a teaching authority had to be appealed to discern error from the truth. The way of the Church was to follow the model of Acts 15.

The Council of Trent (1545 - 1563) defined the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and the Eucharist as both the continuing sacrifice of Christ and a real sacrament. The institution of the Eucharist as sacrament was contained in the words "Do this in remembrance of me."

The date of declared “Dogma” is significant ONLY in that it raises this believe that has always been held as true, believed, understood and practiced, to a position of indisputable truth. This was made necessary by the Protestant revolution, begun by Martin Luther which soon spread to other “I Know more or I know better” than God and the Catholic Church. Despite regional attacks throughout history , none had ever been serious enough, wide spread enough to require such an action, which has always been held as infallible truth, because God said so.

[4] It was around 1226 that catholics begin to bow down before the bread

Actually is on or far more like, much before 1171.

To clarify our Teaching as catholics. We UNDERSTAND that the Eucharist is From God [the Father], Of God [Jesus the Son], and caused By God [The Holy Spirit] using His priest. It is a series of miracles that ONLY humanity can benefit from as God is already Perfect.

[7] Because Christ was standing up in front of his disciples it is clear that in holding up the bread and wine and pronouncing the words that “this is My Body; this is My Blood” were intended to be understood [only] symbolically.

No, not at all. Christ made clear just what he did mean; it was understood by the Apostles, and it was put into practice as Jesus commanded after He died. Do not hold god to “time” which is a necessity of humanity; not of God for whom everything is in the “present.”

[8] There can be no doubt of this because he calls “it bread three times”, which he certainly would NOT have done if it really was not ONLY BREAD, but literally his body. {every time you eat this bread” … 1^st. Cor. 11:26-28} “For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. [PAUL’S Admonition] Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.” … A bit of “slight of hand” is attempted here. Only the first use is from the mouth of Jesus [who clearly] is implying that it is NOW His Body and no-longer just bread… which also is the rebuke Paul gives to those who are not giving IT proper respect and worship!

[9] he MUST have been speaking symbolically either when he was speaking of the bread or when speaking of his body

And this friends is the thinking of secular-humanistic logic; void of Faith, Hope, love and TRUTH.

[10] the question is NOT “should we interpret the passage literally… BUT which part are we to interpret literally and which part symbolically?” DITTO above comments

[11] the only other choice is that it changed from bread to his body then back to bread again

Same lack of understanding repeated here

[12] we find a similar remark in Mark 14:25 “Truly, I say to you, I shall not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God."

This takes place in a Passover meal, and Jesus here refers to the third Traditional cut of wine.

[13] Did he NOT MEAN that it is through him, we can enter into heaven, rather than his body which had been changed into blood.”

Actually it is NOT ONLY “through Him” IT IS Through Him, and With Him and In Him” which exactly why Jesus does it. Because Salvation IS through Jesus; the Eucharist is the GREATEST AID God can provide [conditionally] to lead us to all that is necessary to merit salvation.

[14] Even MORE important at the moment the miracle should occur; nothing happenings

Thomas here’s the deal I’ll make you: YOU show me “grace” and then I’ll show you Jesus REALLY in the Eucharist [actually I intend to do this anyway].

[15] By way of comparison Christ changed water into wine and it became WINE! [Jn.28: 8-10]…Funny you should mention that. This miracle is different from every other Jesus reported miracle in that ALL of the others had a “Spiritual element”, a spiritual benefit. So what and where are the “spiritual element; the spiritual benefit here?” … To Be continued at the Last Supper!

Thomas I don’t want to make light of your point. Every other miracle had physical evidence, and you’re asking why not here? And the Answer is that it is at the Last Supper: REALLY CHRIST, thee miracle of miracles because it is not only done by God; IT IS GOD!

[16] now let us not loose sight of the true purpose of the “communion service”. Christ never ONCE told the disciples to offer up his body again; He told the TWICE to do this “in memory of me.”

Excuse me Brother Thomas;. “Communion service???” NOT !!!!!! “ Mass” YES! With theTransubstaniatiated; REAL Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity: the COMPLETE JESUS CHRIST.

Pat

The THIRD issue raised is “Can the sacrifice of Christ be Renewed”?

Thomas say’s “NO!”

And this agrees with what we Catholics Actually believe. Christ Sacrifice in the Most holy Eucharist is One and the SAME-IDENTIAL one that claimed Christ Life. We understand that Jesus can ONLY die once in His human nature; thus the Sacrifice is “RE-PRESENTED”; PRESENTED AGAIN AND AGAIN WHICH TOO IS A MIRACLE FROM GOD.